How does curation work on Hive, what are the rules, posting and voting limits?

in LeoFinance •  26 days ago  (edited)

The Hive experience is unique in many ways and because community is the most valuable resource there is as it drives all supply and demand through consumer decisions, the customer is vital. Unlike almost every other social platform in the world, one of the most exciting things on Hive is the ability to earn through consumption, earn by supporting the content and authors you enjoy. On Hive, this is called curation.

hive and bee_1.png

Curation and consumer rewards

Firstly, curation is the process of selecting and organizing content and on Hive, it is the "job" of curators to do this, where the curators are all users on the platform. Because Hive is a DPoS blockchain where the staked token ("powered up") serves as a mining tool to access the new token pool, the process of consuming most forms of Hive content allows for mining rights relative to the amount of stake.

Simply put, once you have some HIVE POWER, you can earn HIVE just by consuming and curating content by voting on it.

There are many technical factors that go into curation, however in this reply, I am just going to add the basics so that you can get an understanding of how the process works in general and get started.

Voting Mana

The first thing that is good to know is that votes are unlimited and the value is based on how much HIVE POWER (staked HIVE) one has, but vote value goes down the more often an account votes. This is done via "voting mana" that reduces the impact of a vote the more voting that takes place, but it regenerates over time. Basically, an account at 100% mana could vote 10x at full power (using all stake) and the mana will drop to 80% and will recover back to full power in 24 hours.

As the mana drops, the value of each subsequent vote drops accordingly, so most people vote the equivalent of 10x a day. This could be 10x 100% votes or for example, 100x 10% or 50x 20% votes.

Voting values in brief

The Vote value is dependent on the average price of HIVE over a 3.5 day period, so that spikes or drops here or there don't have as large impact. But for example currently, HIVE is worth about 25 cents and 10,000 HIVE power is therefore worth 2,500 dollars US. A 100% vote with 10,000 HIVE POWER is worth 10 cents, therefore 10x a day, it is about a dollar a day or about 365 dollars a year if price remains equal. This however is paid in HIVE POWER and therefore will compound a little over time to make the voting value increase. At current price, 365 dollars is about 1460 HIVE, meaning that total 10,000 HIVE would increase just by voting and become more powerful. If The price of HIVE doubled to 50 cents, the value of the votes increases accordingly, but it will pay about the same amount of HIVE regardless of price.

50/50 Curation return

Having quickly covered voting values, we now have to look at the curation return on voting, which is a 50/50 split between between curator and creator. So, that 100% 10 cent vote would give each user 5 cents each. So in the space of a year, that 365 dollars and 1460 HIVE earned through curation would see half go to the voter, half to what was voted upon. This means that the 10,000 HIVE POWER would increase to around about 10,700 and therefore have more power to vote on. This compounds over time all the way, so the actual figure would be more. Compounding value adds up.

This process means that the creator can earn and potentially stake their HIVE tokens and then support the content they enjoy also. The more staked up and diverse accounts with HIVE POWER, the wider the distribution goes and the more types of content get supported. This attracts creators and audience to drive demand and should see an increase in token value. In some way, curation can be seen as a payment, a tip or an encouragement for what is consumed and the more that take part, the stronger the economy. Economies benefit from trade and on Hive, we are trading the value of the pool for the content we consume, but also getting half of that value from the pool ourselves. It is a win-win, with the creator getting paid and the curator getting paid to consume what they enjoy.

Vote stacking

The idea of Proof of Brain or wisdom of the crowd through curation is that the best and most consumed, the important and useful content will be discovered by the community and earn more than others. This means that content will attract more value based on the amount of stake that votes on it, not how many votes it attracts. This is because there is a "skin in the game" approach to curation, so while I have used 10,000 HIVE power in the example for a 10 cent vote, all things remaining equal, a 100,000 HIVE POWER vote is worth a dollar and a 1,000,000 account is worth 10 or, 100 dollars in voting value a day.

Now, this is where it starts to get much more complicated in the algorithms, but essentially, earlier voters benefit from the power of later voters. What this means is that while the total vote value is split 50/50 between the curators and creator, each curator can affect the percentage they get depending on when they vote and which order the votes come in. Earlier voters benefit from later as they "unearth" the post in some way, they recognize the value and say "hey, look at this" and if larger vote values follow, the curation percentage can by several multiples more than the 50% standard return, with the later voters getting less than the 50% - the creator always gets their 50% though.

Voting window

I don't want to make curation complicated as there are a lot of mechanics and algorithms, but one of them is gamification through a reverse auction window. Currently (this can change and has in the past), there is a 5 minute voting window that has a straight line scaling that reduces the curation return. This is designed to stop "frontrunning"large voters on popular authors and add gamification into the voting process.

To visualize this line:

If voting at 0 min = 100% penalty, 100% of the curation stays in the pool
If voting at 1 min = 80% penalty, 80% of the curation stays in the pool
If voting at 2 min = 60% penalty, 60% of the curation stays in the pool
If voting at 3 min = 40% penalty, 40% of the curation stays in the pool
If voting at 4 min = 20% penalty, 20% of the curation stays in the pool
After 5 minutes, curator gets 100% of the curation earned.
The author always gets their 50% of the vote value.

The game for curators looking to maximize is trying to judge where they will gain the most and lose the least and there are many factors that come into play here. Voting after 5 minutes gets 100% of curation earned, but if significant vote value came in at 4 minutes, it might have been better to vote at 3 minutes - as an example. It is important to note that the lost curation return stays in the pool and will mean that the pool is a little larger than if there was nothing returned. This voting earlier in the window is often called "burning curation returns".

The other thing to note is that each post or comment is only open for voting to earn on for 7 days, at which point it will close and the earnings for creator and curators will be paid from the pool into the accounts.

The best way to vote?

There is not really a clear answer for this as it depends on the purpose of the user. A maximizer might look for the way to increase their holdings only and might vote on terrible content that adds no value to the community to try to do so. However, perhaps having token value worth more by building a valuable community is a better result than having more tokens that are worth less.

Because of the difference in what people think will add value, I can only give an opinion here and say that in my experience, it is more rewarding to vote on content I enjoy even if it doesn't get me as much in curation return - I personally have quite a lot of stake in HIVE POWER so the "cost" in earning HIVE might be significant, but the value I see in supporting content and creators who are deserving and value adding is far greater than the curation value I will earn. However, I also recommend taking a hybrid approach and spending some percentage of vote value trying to maximize effects as it is a great way to learn how the system works as well as broadening the experience and exposure to accounts.

In my (quite good) experience, actions toward improving the strength of the community are personally far more valuable than trying to maximize my own earnings through attempting to game the system in some way. Investors who support the growth of the community through how they consume have the potential to not only increase their holdings significantly, they will also add to the token value of their holdings significantly. Supporting the community means everyone in the community can benefit.

For the creators

I will finish this with a paragraph for creators on Hive. Because people think about the curation returns and their vote values, posting more doesn't mean you will attract more votes or earnings and if anything, it will turn many people away, especially if it seems like SPAM. There is very little limitation on how much one can post, but the content that attracts the majority of votes is generally better quality or from those who try to add value to the community through development or building their network. The network is very important to earnings on Hive and because it is stake-weighted voting, it is about the stake attracted, not the number of followers.

In general, those who are highly staked are looking to add value to their holdings, not earn each day on curation - so they are more likely to vote on content or people they consider value-adding. This means that in order to attract consistent attention through votes, one generally has to add value consistently - and this takes time to build, it isn't a get rich quick scenario at all.

Complexity of the voting system, simplified

This is a general overview for those who are new or yet to join Hive and there are many details missing. However, the voting system is quite complex and can change over time with development. The first thing one should consider when joining Hive isn't what kinds of curation returns one can get but instead understand - it is possible to earn on consumption. Consumer rewards are the way of the future of digital content and learning and investing into the processes early will possibly be highly valuable.

A handy way for me to see consumer rewards by having HIVE POWER is like having a subscription to a pool of value that I can use to add tips to the content I enjoy - forever. Based on my holdings, I can tip all kinds of content and add value to all kinds of creators as well as increase my own holdings at the same time. For me, the entire process, whether I am creating or curating is highly enjoyable and while imperfect in many ways, is far better than any other social platform or online experience, because we are rewarded for investing into each other.

The most important thing to know about curation on Hive is that, you can earn on consuming what you enjoy and by doing so, you can add value to the creators you love in very real ways, as well as the entire community. And of course, have a massive amount of fun and meet some great people in the process.

Taraz
[ Gen1: Hive ]

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Curation is by far the hardest thing to get right. I can maximize it which only makes sense in niche cases. I can trade votes (or worse sell them). I can just vote for whatever interests me. I can curate to make Hive a better place.

I think the best thing to do is a mix, aim to maximize rewards while minimizing trading or scheming.

The one thing interesting about curation is unlike posting, it scales better. For example, by posting twice as often you probably aren't going to double your posting rewards, but by doubling your HP, you are likely to earn double your curation rewards (at least until you are a whale and your vote is like).

Another interesting thing is if the value of Hive increases a lot, your curation rewards increase directly proportionate, however, your author rewards won't. This is a little less obvious, but the main idea is a lot of people start shitposting when Hive is worth a lot, so there are more people to share the rewards with. Also, curators tend to reduce the amount of vote per post thinking 50 cents or whatever their vote is worth is enough. So it's way more sustainable (and easier if you don't care).

I constantly think I need to improve my curation, but I rarely think I need to improve my posting.

I constantly think I need to improve my curation, but I rarely think I need to improve my posting.

And this will be getting increasingly more important over time as blogging here as a source of income gets harder and harder. Good curators will be even more needed to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Copywriting has always been a thing, but this doesn't require much understanding of Hive. You can publish your post on any platform with little change to the content.

However, curation is highly platform-specific. There are already a few large curators on Hive who have hired specialists or built up special communities, so it's actually becoming a job. The exception seems to be TIPU which is taking a different approach to curation, but that's why it's often so weird and poorly done (ex. curating a popular whale or orca's post).

Personally, I don't want to become a specialist but I do want to hold my own and be better at curating. Ideally, I want to become great at recognizing great curators. It's much harder than recognizing a good writer (someone who interests me).

I think the best thing to do is a mix, aim to maximize rewards while minimizing trading or scheming.

I agree and I think that the way "maximization" happens matters. If I can get more by adding value to the community, why would I scheme - for most people, this would be the case. I think a lot of small accounts especially would benefit more through honest participation than trying to maximize their own stake.

The one thing interesting about curation is unlike posting, it scales better. For example, by posting twice as often you probably aren't going to double your posting rewards, but by doubling your HP, you are likely to earn double your curation rewards

For sure.Through participation, it adds up fast, especially if adding a bit of value along the way.

Another interesting thing is if the value of Hive increases a lot, your curation rewards increase directly proportionate, however, your author rewards won't. This is a little less obvious, but the main idea is a lot of people start shitposting when Hive is worth a lot, so there are more people to share the rewards with. Also, curators tend to reduce the amount of vote per post thinking 50 cents or whatever their vote is worth is enough. So it's way more sustainable (and easier if you don't care).

I am glad that this idea is spreading - I have been hammering it for 3 years now :D

Curation is a gamechanger but because people are short-sighted, they don't see the future of it

I think the easiest explanation: curation is what makes Hive valuable. Posting only really adds value to Hive in the first 7 days, and although neither is perfect, there are a lot more problems with people trying to game posting rewards than curation

there are a lot more problems with people trying to game posting rewards than curation

This is true and I would assume that there is more leakage in curation attempts

After your well stated/written analysis about curation I'm forced to even tweak my curation style and well do better with the timing, this is an amazing hive basics well written. Cheers Taraz

It is worth having a bit of an experiment with it at least, as it really does help you learn about other parts of the platform :)

Exactly, so much I still don't know despite being here for a long time.

You’re the man who knows mostly everything about Hive

Please do our community a favour.

Drop some Tweet storm about Hive when time allows you

Thanks for sharing your work on Twitter and that’s already adding value to Hive ecosystem

I will do my best :)

Good Man :)

I think I tried the maximising thing once just out of curiousity and it was exactly as boring and exhausting as I thought it would be so I'm wasting all those potential curation rewards sticking to my own narrow-minded preferences XD

Giving it a go is fun, keeping it up boring and tiring.... I think that most of the people who maximize their stake, miss out in many other areas. They think they are getting a good return without knowing what they are really leaving on the table. Community participation has more value. However, the curation process is unique and valuable, but not as a maximization tool, but as a way to directly reward and build the community.

Thank you @tarazkp for all this information i have learnt a lot more about Hive today very useful indeed 👍

Glad it helped :)

😊 👍 😂

This is an excellent post. This post should be shared with every new onboarder, for them to understand.
I will bookmark this.

Share it as far as you want :)

Of course, this is an instashare! When I joined, there was really nothing to help you learn the ropes. I was actually upvoting everyone because it let me. Seriously, I voted $0 and didn't even know it. True story. Let's not pass it around. I am sure they talked about it for a long time.

So having an explanation on the how-tos is vital. Most people on the platform don't even know how it really works. A little bit, but, not everything.

So thanks and have a great night!

Upped and Reposted

!tip

I was actually upvoting everyone because it let me.

This is common. I had no idea about it either and was just told "votes have value" I had 15SP from Steemit... no they didn't. Also back then, there were far fewer tools to see what was going on. I remember getting the slider at 500SP and didn't know it was a thing at all, just thought it was a UI upgrade.

So having an explanation on the how-tos is vital. Most people on the platform don't even know how it really works. A little bit, but, not everything.

I don't know it all in this area as once it gets to the algorithms, I get lost as math is not my strong point. =)

A very could post especially for new comers and those that have difficulty in explaining how Hive works in a basic way to friends that are considering joining Hive. Most impressed. Thank you @tarazkp for sharing!

Yep, this isn't for the seasoned and is missing a lot of detail, but for the new recruit, it should suffice to get them thinking :)

Very good write up. I really like to way curation is supposed to work. To be honest I wish that more people would do it manually instead of using autovoting. Using bots has never sat well with me even though I am in receipt of a few myself.
Unfortunately bots are a fact of the game and I think it would have been a good idea to mention them. Knowing that you are competing against bots in curation is knowledge that many new accounts don't have.
Just a thought.

Yep, there is the competition against autos but in my opinion, it isn't necessary to mention in this case as if someone is paying attention, the autos are manually set by a human, they just don't have to watch every post. They can be gamed too. For a new recruit, they have so little HP that curation won't matter, but understanding the potential of it might encourage them to up their stake and participate in the community more. I personally think that in the beginning, it is either be part of the community for the betterment of the community to earn or, buy in. The end goal I believe is that the greatest mass of gainers will actually add and receive value, even though some individuals might earn more. Very few are good at curation, even with auto services.

Only saw this now and bookmarked this masterpiece!

Glad you liked it. It is one of the areas everyone wants to earn from, but many don't understand well.

That's way too good.

Probably best to avoid a discussion of rshares...

Capture.JPG

Am I right in thinking there's no curation front-running on Leo btw? I'm sure it's different somehow.

I think I might have a go at this question, but I want to style it up a bit differently and have some fun with it, I just need to get it straight in my head first of all!

There is curation front-running also on LEO, the hiveblocks screenshot doesn't show the votes in the order they were cast. Here are the first votes on this post with LEO weights/rshares:

VoterDelayWeightrshares%
tonimontana.leo0.05 min116106678745.16
mindtrap-leo0.05 min45392060276135.0
leovoter0.10 min26703199662450.0
arctis0.15 min5288004395100.0
bearjohn0.25 min146825214163100.0

Yup that’s right. There is currently no reverse auction window (on any tribe tokens) from what I understood when LEO was started last year, it’s impossible for Hive Engine’s system to register such a window. Hopefully an SMT or improvement to HE would make it possible for us to add a better window. I’ve written about dynamic reverse auction windows and how it would improve curation on both hive and LEO

Posted Using LeoFinance

I’ve written about dynamic reverse auction windows and how it would improve curation on both hive and LEO

Do you have a link, as it sounds interesting.

the hiveblocks screenshot doesn't show the votes in the order they were cast

I didn't know that thanks!

Do you extract all this data with Python btw?

yes, I did it with python, but any other language could do as well. The SCOT API endpoint with the JSON data is here: http://scot-api.steem-engine.com/@tarazkp/how-does-curation-work-on-hive-what-are-the-rules-posting-and-voting-limits?hive=1

I've never seen that before, very interesting!

Great way to freak people out too.

Not sure about LEO or the tribes as I think they can all choose differently. I remember hearing that there might be no window though, so first in, first served.

I'm running a little experiment with different vote times ATM.

I had set a few of my votes to <1 minute a couple of weeks ago, but for the life of me I cannot find them to correlate them with the rewards!

A number of accounts do vote early with Leo, that's for sure.

There's no reverse auction / early vote penalty on the tribes. The earlier, the better.

Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge. Well written easy to understand and put into use.

You are welcome.

Well written easy to understand and put into use.

Hopefully it helps people who might struggle in this area.

Dear @tarazkp, thank you very much. I leaved Steem 2 years ago and then when I tried to go back I saw the Hive think and now I'm quite confuse. I'm spanding sometime understanding the new situation and your post is soo usefull for me. I wish have more stack to bring you a big vote.

Thanks again.

Hive is what Steem should have been doing, but unfortunately was ruined in a hostile takeover. Glad this helps a bit.

the value I see in supporting content and creators who are deserving and value adding is far greater than the curation value I will earn

That should be the vision of everyone who got a good chunk of hive power to take this platform to next level.

It probably should be the driving force behind anyone of any size here. Find good content, support it.

Great post and explanation. This should be added as a FAQ for new users!

Thanks. I am not sure what will happen with these later, but at least there are now some solid answers to basic questions on Quora

@tarazkp : Nice post suitable for newcomers. I just shared it to a friend :)

Hopefully it helps your friend out :)

We are planning to do a small experiment. Let us see how it goes. :)

Sounds like fun :)

If voting at 0 min = 100% penalty, 100% of the curation stays in the pool

I used to thought that it help the author and it goes to author.

Still, I do not understand why my vote value is different for different post at same time?

Currently "peakd" shows me I have vote value of ".010" . But if go on for voting a post that has payout less than .20, my vote changes to ".006", for less than 50 cents payout it changes to ".007". for 1$ post payout my vote value is ".009" . If post payout is valued above 3, then I see I am able to cast my full ".01" vote.

Any idea?

I used to thought that it help the author and it goes to author.

It used to, but it was changed in the EIP hardfork so to limit selfvote abuse a bit. People would vote at 0 on themselves and shut others out of curation, while still maximizing their own vote.

Replied to early..

Currently "peakd" shows me I have vote value of ".010" . But if go on for voting a post that has payout less than .20, my vote changes to ".006", for less than 50 cents payout it changes to ".007". for 1$ post payout my vote value is ".009" . If post payout is valued above 3, then I see I am able to cast my full ".01" vote.

Yep, this is because there is a slight curve on the voting too (but it is complicated and didn't want to put it in a basics post) that means that there is more advantage in supporting content that will get over a threshold of around 4 dollars. This is why a lot of people don't vote comments now, because the value isn't as high as it won't likely get other votes on it. I still vote comments because I would rather help spread than maximize my curation. :D

I have to run, but if you search "convergent curve" you should find something technical on it.

Visiting, consuming and commenting on amazing people here in Hive, thoroughly enjoyed reading this, doing everything manually takes time, you meet more people who genuinely wish to engage.

Curation had me floored for a long time, I started slowly learning more and this informational direction really helps straighten out some things not originally noted.

Thanks so much!

doing everything manually takes time, you meet more people who genuinely wish to engage.

Because it takes time is part of the reason that those who do it build stronger relationships.

Curation had me floored for a long time, I started slowly learning more and this informational direction really helps straighten out some things not originally noted.

Thanks for adding this as I believe the same. Often we limit ourselves to what we know or our area of interest and in doing so, miss a lot of understanding that supports it and helps us be better at what we enjoy. I see it like cross-training for a sport - it is an indirect support.

I believe in adding value. And making friends along the way. I find people who do spamming posting many many times per day quite annoying because the content lacks quality. It is like you are trying to buy 10 cheap ice creams to pretend you have a taste of the 1 expensive icecream that you were too cheap to buy. I think it is better to think stuff through and put a bit of soul into what you post. It just feels right. Especially in a community.

Have a great week-end, maybe burning off the Pavlova calories😂

It is like you are trying to buy 10 cheap ice creams to pretend you have a taste of the 1 expensive icecream that you were too cheap to buy.

This description made me laugh! :D

Have a great week-end, maybe burning off the Pavlova calories

I will need next weekend for this too :P

Nom nom nom nom😂

My name is Taraz and I have an eating problem...

😂😂😂

Appreciate the explanation of all this. Very detailed and covers it in a no nonsense way

Hopefully it helps some people get started on and off the platform =)

For a new user this is the basics they need to understand. I think there is a balance between gaming and supporting which you highlighted very well. Curation rewards are important to any account growth so managing the 20 percent daily free votes is the key. I used to see many accounts sitting on 100 percent and wonder why.

I used to see many accounts sitting on 100 percent and wonder why.

I also see some voting down to nothing, and wonder why :D

Great info in this post, thanx Taraz!

I just moved 100+ steem to Hive today. Just a drop in the bucket I know. And I see Bittrex finally took the currency maint hold off.

So I will be moving that 265 to Hive soon. Once I feel like I know what I am doing, then let the staking begin.

It is good that you have been able to move things across. Have some fun in the learning process :)

It really is becoming fun. Like a puzzle I must solve and have a desire to be good at.

I spoke with Binance support. They are working on clearing the regulatory restrictions in the remaining states in the U.S. where they currently are not permitted to operate. I asked them to put me on the notification list for when this takes place. I am currently tinkering around with Bittrex, Tradeogre, BitMart, Coinbase. Coinbase being the 1st one. I originally purchased Steem with Fiat a few years back. And is still linked with my credit union account.

Nice job on this subject and interesting comment about volume posters.

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and interesting comment about volume posters.

Back in the day, there was no limiter on the autos even, so people couldn't support "one a day" for example, it was all or nothing - and when someone posts a lot - it is nothing. Those who posted a lot and got autos were pretty obviously looking to take all they can and the quality suffered. In general, not many people can post more than a couple times a day and maintain some value and standards. The other thing is that everyone has limited time too, not just limited HP, so commenting on the same author many times a day is largely not likely - so posting too much will see a lack of engagement - and this is from the author too, as they are writing more than replying.

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